Discussion:
Back to back floor controls.
Fpdcdesign
2018-11-06 20:37:38 UTC
Permalink
I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?



Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-553-3553 (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)
Mike Stossel
2018-11-06 20:40:50 UTC
Permalink
If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.

Mike Stossel SET
[400dpiLogoCropped]
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
John Denhardt
2018-11-06 20:48:53 UTC
Permalink
I agree. Check valves are required.

John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:

If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.

Mike Stossel SET
<image002.png>
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
c***@fire-design.com
2018-11-06 20:53:18 UTC
Permalink
I thought Todd said this was a 2-story building?



I’d use the check valves but more for good ‘engineering practice’. I’m not certain that they are ‘required’, based on the info Todd provided.



Just my opinion.



Cliff Whitfield, SET

President



Fire Design, Inc.

184 Comfort Place

Burnsville, NC 28714

Ph: 828-284-4772







<mailto:***@fire-design.com> ***@fire-design.com

<http://www.fire-design.com/> www.fire-design.com



From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of John Denhardt
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:49 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.



I agree. Check valves are required.



John

John August Denhardt, P.E.

Strickland Fire Protection


On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com <mailto:***@knssprinkler.com> > wrote:

If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.



8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.

8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.



Mike Stossel SET

<image002.png>

36 Barren Road

East Stroudsburg, PA 18302

Office: 973-670-2627

***@knssprinkler.com <mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>



From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org> >
Subject: Back to back floor controls.



I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?


Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-553-3553 (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)

_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org



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Mike Stossel
2018-11-06 20:56:45 UTC
Permalink
You are absolutely right, it always helps when you read the entire question and don’t jump to a conclusion. My apologizes for the incorrect information.

Mike Stossel SET
[400dpiLogoCropped]
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of ***@fire-design.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:53 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Back to back floor controls.

I thought Todd said this was a 2-story building?

I’d use the check valves but more for good ‘engineering practice’. I’m not certain that they are ‘required’, based on the info Todd provided.

Just my opinion.

Cliff Whitfield, SET
President

Fire Design, Inc.
184 Comfort Place
Burnsville, NC 28714
Ph: 828-284-4772

[Description: New FDI Logo-4.jpg]

***@fire-design.com<mailto:***@fire-design.com>
www.fire-design.com<http://www.fire-design.com/>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of John Denhardt
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:49 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.

I agree. Check valves are required.

John
John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:
If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.

Mike Stossel SET
<image002.png>
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

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Steve Leyton
2018-11-07 05:31:59 UTC
Permalink
You know, at some point we have to stop being sheep and take the initiative. I understand that the designer is subordinate to the directive of the engineer of record. But in this case the EOR is recommending something that I passionately and organically believe to be a bad practice. Installing unnecessary control valves adds potential failure links to the chain of events. Plus unnecessary first cost and unnecessary ongoing cost for maintenance of these redundant valves and supervisory devices.

Someday, if one of those valves gets left shut and the system fails to control or suppress a fire, and heaven forbid somebody should be injured or killed, the designer and everyone else associated with the project will get sued. There is no good reason to add those valves to system configured as described. Talking about whether check valves or flow switches are required just adds to the level of obscuration. To me the issue should be how best to stand up to the idiot who is specifying this arrangement.


Steve Leyton

(Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.)



-------- Original message --------
From: John Denhardt <***@stricklandfire.com>
Date: 11/6/18 11:49 PM (GMT+03:00)
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.

I agree. Check valves are required.

John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:

If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.

Mike Stossel SET
<image002.png>
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
Mark.Phelps
2018-11-07 16:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi Steve,
Occasionally you and I see things differently, but on this, my friend we are in 100% agreement. Well said.

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 10:32 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Back to back floor controls.

You know, at some point we have to stop being sheep and take the initiative. I understand that the designer is subordinate to the directive of the engineer of record. But in this case the EOR is recommending something that I passionately and organically believe to be a bad practice. Installing unnecessary control valves adds potential failure links to the chain of events. Plus unnecessary first cost and unnecessary ongoing cost for maintenance of these redundant valves and supervisory devices.

Someday, if one of those valves gets left shut and the system fails to control or suppress a fire, and heaven forbid somebody should be injured or killed, the designer and everyone else associated with the project will get sued. There is no good reason to add those valves to system configured as described. Talking about whether check valves or flow switches are required just adds to the level of obscuration. To me the issue should be how best to stand up to the idiot who is specifying this arrangement.


Steve Leyton

(Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.)



-------- Original message --------
From: John Denhardt <***@stricklandfire.com<mailto:***@stricklandfire.com>>
Date: 11/6/18 11:49 PM (GMT+03:00)
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.

I agree. Check valves are required.

John
John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:
If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.

Mike Stossel SET
<image002.png>
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4" riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
Reed A. Roisum, SET
2018-11-06 20:42:04 UTC
Permalink
If you are in NFPA 13, 2013 edition or newer I believe the check valve is required.


Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 | KFIengineers.com<http://www.kfiengineers.com>
From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

______________________________________________________________________
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Mike Stossel
2018-11-06 20:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, I also made the assumption that your total floor area exceeded the square footage.

8.16.1.5.3 The floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch required by 8.16.1.6.3 shall not be required where the total area of all floors combined does not exceed the system protection area limitations of 8.2.1.

Mike Stossel SET
[400dpiLogoCropped]
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
Fpdcdesign
2018-11-06 21:08:54 UTC
Permalink
This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The only requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are connecting to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone valves are interconnected).



My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are two flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to simultaneous operation?



Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-553-3553 (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)







>
> On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM, <John Denhardt (mailto:***@stricklandfire.com)> wrote:
>
>
> I agree. Check valves are required.
>
>
> John
>
>
> John August Denhardt, P.E.
> Strickland Fire Protection
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com (mailto:***@knssprinkler.com)> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
> >
> >
> >
> > 8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Stossel SET
> >
> >
> >
> > <image002.png>
> >
> >
> >
> > 36 Barren Road
> >
> >
> >
> > East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
> >
> >
> >
> > Office: 973-670-2627
> >
> >
> >
> > ***@knssprinkler.com (mailto:***@knssprinkler.com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org (mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org)> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
> > To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org (mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org)>
> > Subject: Back to back floor controls.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Todd G Williams, PE
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Stonington, CT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 860-553-3553 (fax)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 860-608-4559 (cell)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > ***@lists.firesprinkler.org (mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org)
> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list ***@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
John Denhardt
2018-11-06 21:13:41 UTC
Permalink
I would not think so as long as the delays are adjusted correctly.

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 4:09 PM, Fpdcdesign <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:

This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The only requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are connecting to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone valves are interconnected).

My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are two flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to simultaneous operation?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)


On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM, <John Denhardt<mailto:***@stricklandfire.com>> wrote:

I agree. Check valves are required.

John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:

If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.

Mike Stossel SET
<image002.png>
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list ***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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Ron Greenman
2018-11-06 21:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Just a guess (perhaps educated but a guess nonetheless) but I'd think any
flow whatsoever from the non-flowing line would be back towards the flowing
line and only momentarily until everything equalized. If the paddle moves
at all it would be the wrong direction and the flow switch mechanism would
remain in its resting position.


Ron Greenman

***@gmail.com

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner
Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera
director (1942-)


On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 1:09 PM Fpdcdesign <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The
> only requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are
> connecting to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone
> valves are interconnected).
>
> My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are
> two flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to
> simultaneous operation?
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-553-3553 (fax)
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM, <John Denhardt <***@stricklandfire.com>>
> wrote:
>
> I agree. Check valves are required.
>
> John
>
> John August Denhardt, P.E.
> Strickland Fire Protection
>
> On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com> wrote:
>
> If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.
>
>
>
> *8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.*
>
> *8.16.1.5.1* *Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall
> be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and
> flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each
> floor level.
>
>
>
> Mike Stossel *SET*
>
> <image002.png>
>
> 36 Barren Road
>
> East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
>
> Office: 973-670-2627
>
> ***@knssprinkler.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org> *On
> Behalf Of *Fpdcdesign
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
> *To:* Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> *Subject:* Back to back floor controls.
>
>
>
> I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The
> engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser
> manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there
> is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either
> side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close
> proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and
> the manifold?
>
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
>
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
> Stonington, CT
>
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
>
> 860-553-3553 (fax)
>
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing
> list ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
Norman Riffner
2018-11-06 21:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Gents, I am bidding out a design for an NFPA 13 R system and could use some technical advise. Any idea as to who may be able to assist?
________________________________
From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org> on behalf of Ron Greenman <***@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 4:17 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.

Just a guess (perhaps educated but a guess nonetheless) but I'd think any flow whatsoever from the non-flowing line would be back towards the flowing line and only momentarily until everything equalized. If the paddle moves at all it would be the wrong direction and the flow switch mechanism would remain in its resting position.


Ron Greenman

***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)


On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 1:09 PM Fpdcdesign <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The only requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are connecting to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone valves are interconnected).

My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are two flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to simultaneous operation?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)


On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM, <John Denhardt<mailto:***@stricklandfire.com>> wrote:

I agree. Check valves are required.

John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:


If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.



8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.

8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.



Mike Stossel SET

<image002.png>

36 Barren Road

East Stroudsburg, PA 18302

Office: 973-670-2627

***@knssprinkler.com<mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>



From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.



I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-553-3553 (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)
AKS-Gmail-IMAP
2018-11-07 02:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Think about why you think close proximity comes into play. Compare the condition to one where the second system is one floor up on the common supply riser. What is the difference between a few inches of incompressible fluid and a story of incompressible fluid? How is the bull head systems arrangement any different from a bank of systems connected at a manifold down in the ground floor service entrance room? Trapped air might aggravate what you are worried about. Focus on mitigating that.

But if you were to install a check valve, it would be after the system valve, not before the system valve. That way only the one system is down when servicing the check valve.

Allan Seidel

> On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:08 PM, Fpdcdesign <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The only requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are connecting to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone valves are interconnected).
>
> My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are two flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to simultaneous operation?
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 <tel:860-535-2080> (ofc)
> 860-553-3553 <tel:860-553-3553> (fax)
> 860-608-4559 <tel:860-608-4559> (cell)
>
>
>> On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM, <John Denhardt <mailto:***@stricklandfire.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I agree. Check valves are required.
>>
>> John
>>
>> John August Denhardt, P.E.
>> Strickland Fire Protection
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com <mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.
>>>
>>> 8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
>>> 8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.
>>>
>>> Mike Stossel SET
>>> <image002.png>
>>> 36 Barren Road
>>> East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
>>> Office: 973-670-2627 <tel:973-670-2627>
>>> ***@knssprinkler.com <mailto:***@knssprinkler.com>
>>>
>>> From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
>>> To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
>>> Subject: Back to back floor controls.
>>>
>>> I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?
>>>
>>> Todd G Williams, PE
>>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>>> Stonington, CT
>>> 860-535-2080 <tel:860-535-2080> (ofc)
>>> 860-553-3553 <tel:860-553-3553> (fax)
>>> 860-608-4559 <tel:860-608-4559> (cell)
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>>> ***@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org>
>> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list ***@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org>_______________________________________________
> Sprinklerforum mailing list
> ***@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org>
Fpdcdesign
2018-11-07 11:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Steve, you are correct. When I was at FM, they were definitely against extra valves on a system for that reason. However, that is the least of the unnecessary requirements on this project. We did manage, after 2 months, to get the 74+ sprinkler deluge exposure system eliminated. Somebody finally came to the conclusion that it wasn’t necessary for protection from wood frame houses 250 ft away. You just have to pick your battles.



Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-553-3553 (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)







>
> On Nov 7, 2018 at 12:31 AM, <Steve Leyton (mailto:***@protectiondesign.com)> wrote:
>
>
>
> You know, at some point we have to stop being sheep and take the initiative. I understand that the designer is subordinate to the directive of the engineer of record. But in this case the EOR is recommending something that I passionately and organically believe to be a bad practice. Installing unnecessary control valves adds potential failure links to the chain of events. Plus unnecessary first cost and unnecessary ongoing cost for maintenance of these redundant valves and supervisory devices.
>
>
>
> Someday, if one of those valves gets left shut and the system fails to control or suppress a fire, and heaven forbid somebody should be injured or killed, the designer and everyone else associated with the project will get sued. There is no good reason to add those valves to system configured as described. Talking about whether check valves or flow switches are required just adds to the level of obscuration. To me the issue should be how best to stand up to the idiot who is specifying this arrangement.
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve Leyton
>
>
> (Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
> From: John Denhardt <***@stricklandfire.com>
>
> Date: 11/6/18 11:49 PM (GMT+03:00)
>
> To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.
>
>
>
> I agree. Check valves are required.
>
>
> John
>
>
> John August Denhardt, P.E.
> Strickland Fire Protection
>
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel <***@knssprinkler.com (mailto:***@knssprinkler.com)> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
> >
> >
> >
> > 8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor level.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Stossel SET
> >
> >
> >
> > <image002.png>
> >
> >
> >
> > 36 Barren Road
> >
> >
> >
> > East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
> >
> >
> >
> > Office: 973-670-2627
> >
> >
> >
> > ***@knssprinkler.com (mailto:***@knssprinkler.com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org (mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org)> On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
> > To: Sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org (mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org)>
> > Subject: Back to back floor controls.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Todd G Williams, PE
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Stonington, CT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 860-553-3553 (fax)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 860-608-4559 (cell)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sprinklerforum mailing list
> > ***@lists.firesprinkler.org (mailto:***@lists.firesprinkler.org)
> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
> > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list ***@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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