Maximum temperature in Fire Pump rooms

[Sean.VanGaal]

NFPA 20 lists 120F as the maximum temperature of the room for Diesel Fire Pumps. I am wondering where this number came from. Was it just a dart throw or was there testing behind it?

I ask because the high temperature in Arizona is 122F. NFPA 20 states you have to properly ventilate the room with no clear guidance beyond this. Since fan only ventilation is impossible in our extreme situation than some sort of Air Conditioning would be required to maintain the 120F.

I have dug around and found pump controllers are rated for 40C (104F) and 50C (122F). Electric motors carry similar temperature ratings as controllers. Diesel engines can have air intake as high as 130F per their manufacturer's datasheet (not per NFPA 20). So I am wondering if this is one of those scenarios where the line in the sand was drawn, and then all the manufacturers had their equipment tested/listed to comply with this line. Can these components actually operate without failure at higher temperatures such as 130F or 140F. Obviously you would want to properly de-rate pump performance accordingly.

Have any of you dealt with similar issues? Were there any accepted solutions besides Air Conditioning?

Thanks,
Sean VG

[Prahl, Craig/GVL]

The diesel engine may be able to operate at 130 -140 deg (F) but your controller may not function at that temp. So, whichever part of the system has the lower failure temp, that is what will dictate the maximum allowable room temp. Could the controllers operate at more than 120(F), maybe, but do you want to roll the dice on that gamble?

AC is the only option if outside air temps exceed the maximum allowable room temp. but remember, it doesn't have to be to human comfort levels (72F) and you could use whatever method of cooling is available at the facility whether that be DX or CW or evaporative cooling. Sometimes a small mini-split system will work other times if the temps are extreme you'll have to provide a more robust system.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead - Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | ***@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com<http://www.jacobs.com/>

From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org> On Behalf Of Sean.VanGaal
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 1:21 PM
To: '***@lists.firesprinkler.org' <***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Maximum temperature in Fire Pump rooms

NFPA 20 lists 120F as the maximum temperature of the room for Diesel Fire Pumps. I am wondering where this number came from. Was it just a dart throw or was there testing behind it?

I ask because the high temperature in Arizona is 122F. NFPA 20 states you have to properly ventilate the room with no clear guidance beyond this. Since fan only ventilation is impossible in our extreme situation than some sort of Air Conditioning would be required to maintain the 120F.

I have dug around and found pump controllers are rated for 40C (104F) and 50C (122F). Electric motors carry similar temperature ratings as controllers. Diesel engines can have air intake as high as 130F per their manufacturer's datasheet (not per NFPA 20). So I am wondering if this is one of those scenarios where the line in the sand was drawn, and then all the manufacturers had their equipment tested/listed to comply with this line. Can these components actually operate without failure at higher temperatures such as 130F or 140F. Obviously you would want to properly de-rate pump performance accordingly.

Have any of you dealt with similar issues? Were there any accepted solutions besides Air Conditioning?

Thanks,
Sean VG


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[Ed.Tambini]

This came up at Luke hangar 3 and it was decided to just use fans. I think Luke hangar 4 was air conditioned

ed

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sean.VanGaal
Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2018 10:21 AM
To: '***@lists.firesprinkler.org' <***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Maximum temperature in Fire Pump rooms

NFPA 20 lists 120F as the maximum temperature of the room for Diesel Fire Pumps. I am wondering where this number came from. Was it just a dart throw or was there testing behind it?

I ask because the high temperature in Arizona is 122F. NFPA 20 states you have to properly ventilate the room with no clear guidance beyond this. Since fan only ventilation is impossible in our extreme situation than some sort of Air Conditioning would be required to maintain the 120F.

I have dug around and found pump controllers are rated for 40C (104F) and 50C (122F). Electric motors carry similar temperature ratings as controllers. Diesel engines can have air intake as high as 130F per their manufacturer's datasheet (not per NFPA 20). So I am wondering if this is one of those scenarios where the line in the sand was drawn, and then all the manufacturers had their equipment tested/listed to comply with this line. Can these components actually operate without failure at higher temperatures such as 130F or 140F. Obviously you would want to properly de-rate pump performance accordingly.

Have any of you dealt with similar issues? Were there any accepted solutions besides Air Conditioning?

Thanks,
Sean VG

[Tom Noble]

Back in LAs Vegas some of the AHJ’s require the riser or pump room to be air conditioned if the alarm panels are installed in those spaces. They were finding at temps above 120F the solder would weaken and separate from the board send false alarms etc.

Thank you,
Tom Noble CET, CFPS
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Technical Programs Specialists
214-349-5965 x125
http://www.firesprinkler.org

NFPA 20 lists 120F as the maximum temperature of the room for Diesel Fire Pumps.  I am wondering where this number came from.  Was it just a dart throw or was there testing behind it?
I ask because the high temperature in Arizona is 122F.  NFPA 20 states you have to properly ventilate the room with no clear guidance beyond this.  Since fan only ventilation is impossible in our extreme situation than some sort of Air Conditioning would be required to maintain the 120F.
I have dug around and found pump controllers are rated for 40C (104F) and 50C (122F).  Electric motors carry similar temperature ratings as controllers.  Diesel engines can have air intake as high as 130F per their manufacturer’s datasheet (not per NFPA 20).  So I am wondering if this is one of those scenarios where the line in the sand was drawn, and then all the manufacturers had their equipment tested/listed to comply with this line.  Can these components actually operate without failure at higher temperatures such as 130F or 140F.  Obviously you would want to properly de-rate pump performance accordingly.
Have any of you dealt with similar issues?  Were there any accepted solutions besides Air Conditioning?
Thanks,
Sean VG
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[Mario Berrios]

To Sprinklerforum,

NFPA 72 [2013] section 10.3.5. Equipment shall be designed so that is capable of performing its intended functions under the following conditions:
[1] At 85 % and T 110% of the nameplate [main] and secondary [standby] input voltages[s].
[2] At ambient temperatures of 32 F and 120 F.
[3] Aat a relative humidity of 85% and an ambient temperature of 86 F.

From a manufacturer of fire alarm panels: the system meets NFPA requirements for operation at 32F to 120F and a relative humidity 93% +- 2% RH [non condensing] at 90F +- 3F. However , the useful life of the system's standby batteries and the electronics components may be adversely affected by extreme temperatures ranges and its pe be installed in an environment with normal room temperature of 60 to 80F.
This is in South Florida.
Some contractors install air conditioning units. There are fire alarm panels with air conditioning.

Fire alarm controllers: I am worried about the 120 F.

Foam tanks outside: one manufacturer indicates maximum 120F;other indicates 95F. containers should be stored in acool ,dry ,well ventilated location and under cover.do not store containers in direct sunlight.

The common thread is the maximum temperature.
thank you.

Mario Berrios, P.E.
***@aol.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Noble <***@firesprinkler.org>
To: sprinklerforum <***@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2018 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: Maximum temperature in Fire Pump rooms



Back in LAs Vegas some of the AHJ’s require the riser or pump room to be air conditioned if the alarm panels are installed in those spaces. They were finding at temps above 120F the solder would weaken and separate from the board send false alarms etc.


Thank you,
Tom Noble CET, CFPS
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Technical Programs Specialists
214-349-5965 x125
http://www.firesprinkler.org
On Aug 7, 2018, 12:21 PM -0500, Sean.VanGaal <***@aerofire.com>, wrote:


NFPA 20 lists 120F as the maximum temperature of the room for Diesel Fire Pumps. I am wondering where this number came from. Was it just a dart throw or was there testing behind it?

I ask because the high temperature in Arizona is 122F. NFPA 20 states you have to properly ventilate the room with no clear guidance beyond this. Since fan only ventilation is impossible in our extreme situation than some sort of Air Conditioning would be required to maintain the 120F.

I have dug around and found pump controllers are rated for 40C (104F) and 50C (122F). Electric motors carry similar temperature ratings as controllers. Diesel engines can have air intake as high as 130F per their manufacturer’s datasheet (not per NFPA 20). So I am wondering if this is one of those scenarios where the line in the sand was drawn, and then all the manufacturers had their equipment tested/listed to comply with this line. Can these components actually operate without failure at higher temperatures such as 130F or 140F. Obviously you would want to properly de-rate pump performance accordingly.

Have any of you dealt with similar issues? Were there any accepted solutions besides Air Conditioning?

Thanks,
Sean VG