Hose Valves for Stage (fire department use)

[Steele, Andrew]

From an operations point of view, specific to my local fire department, it would make sense to have the 2-1/2 outlet even when not required.

The 1-1/2 outlet with racked hose would be for incipient fire use by the occupants, if they so choose.

The 2-1/2 outlet would be used by the responding fire department, if the outlet was (1) able to be located and (2) not within the fire area. My local fire department carries "preassembled standpipe hose pack bag" on each apparatus, setup with about five feet of 3-inch (2-1/2 couplings) to a wye, (this short section of 3 gets the wye our of a tight cabinets) and then 150-ft of 1-3/4 inch line to low pressure adjustable fog nozzles. These nozzles work at higher pressures, but also function at 65-psi, whereas our normal attack line nozzle normally get pumped at 150-psi.). These standpipe nozzles also have a removable section, to convert each nozzle from fog to a 7/8-inch straight tip (which our crews like best, as any rust debris, cigarette butts, etc., will pass through, and they work better a low pressures.).

We've had one theatre related fire within the last couple of years. It was within the carpentry shop/props department, across a hallway, from the stage. Three sprinkler heads held fire in check, but didn't fully extinguish due to shielded areas within large wall mounted prop racking. Very thick dense wood smoldering smoke throughout 1/3 of the first floor (it's a four story high-school) school, light smoke throughout most of the other first floor areas.

Andrew Steele
Fire Marshal

[Steve Leyton]

Tactical perspective always adds to the conversation. I'd like to pile onto your comments if I may Andrew ... If it was my choice, I would likely arrange these connections as 2½" hose connections fed by the sprinkler system as is my designer's prerogative and furnish them with 2½" x 1½" reducers as approved by the responding FD. It's the simplest configuration and as you say, it gives the FD what they need, that being a water supply connection but not a hose station. And to clarify the purpose of those hose racks, I really prefer to reference them as they're defined in the standard now - you mentioned use "by the occupants, if they so choose" but the standard defines them as, "... for use primarily by trained personnel ...". We see lots of school stages - compared to the number of community or municipal auditorium projects we have in California, multi-purpose and performing arts buildings at community colleges and K-12 make up the vast majority of these applications. In those occupancies in particular, we want everyone out - the worst case scenario is untrained staff or a student staying on stage with a fire working nearby or overhead. So leaving hoses out of the equation removes that temptation.

I'm curious about your high/low pressure tips with the removable section - what make and model of nozzles does your dept. use on the hose packs?

The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA 14 Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
San Diego, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steele, Andrew
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 6:09 AM
To: '***@lists.firesprinkler.org'
Subject: RE: Hose Valves for Stage (fire department use)

From an operations point of view, specific to my local fire department, it would make sense to have the 2-1/2 outlet even when not required.

The 1-1/2 outlet with racked hose would be for incipient fire use by the occupants, if they so choose.

The 2-1/2 outlet would be used by the responding fire department, if the outlet was (1) able to be located and (2) not within the fire area. My local fire department carries "preassembled standpipe hose pack bag" on each apparatus, setup with about five feet of 3-inch (2-1/2 couplings) to a wye, (this short section of 3 gets the wye our of a tight cabinets) and then 150-ft of 1-3/4 inch line to low pressure adjustable fog nozzles. These nozzles work at higher pressures, but also function at 65-psi, whereas our normal attack line nozzle normally get pumped at 150-psi.). These standpipe nozzles also have a removable section, to convert each nozzle from fog to a 7/8-inch straight tip (which our crews like best, as any rust debris, cigarette butts, etc., will pass through, and they work better a low pressures.).

We've had one theatre related fire within the last couple of years. It was within the carpentry shop/props department, across a hallway, from the stage. Three sprinkler heads held fire in check, but didn't fully extinguish due to shielded areas within large wall mounted prop racking. Very thick dense wood smoldering smoke throughout 1/3 of the first floor (it's a four story high-school) school, light smoke throughout most of the other first floor areas.

Andrew Steele
Fire Marshal

[Steele, Andrew]

Dayton Ohio - Standpipe pack. We have Elkhart Brass's "Chief 150" nozzle for its low pressure capability (and apparently the nozzles are 30+years old now). At 50psi nozzle pressure, they flow about 109 gpm with 51-89 feet of throw, at 100lbs = 150 gpm flow and 56 to 124 feet of reach, at 150psi = 182 gpm. (From Elkhart's catalog).

All of our regular attack line, of which each engine has three (consisting of 200ft of pre-connected hose, the first section being 50-ft of 2-inch and then three 50-ft sections of 1-3/4), use Task Force Tip automatic fog nozzles. They have a listed flow of 95 to 300 gallons per minutes at 100-psi at nozzle. Our default starting pump pressure is 150-lbs.



Andrew Steele



------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 12:38 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Hose Valves for Stage (fire department use)

Tactical perspective always adds to the conversation. I'd like to pile onto your comments if I may Andrew ... If it was my choice, I would likely arrange these connections as 2½" hose connections fed by the sprinkler system as is my designer's prerogative and furnish them with 2½" x 1½" reducers as approved by the responding FD. It's the simplest configuration and as you say, it gives the FD what they need, that being a water supply connection but not a hose station. And to clarify the purpose of those hose racks, I really prefer to reference them as they're defined in the standard now - you mentioned use "by the occupants, if they so choose" but the standard defines them as, "... for use primarily by trained personnel ...". We see lots of school stages - compared to the number of community or municipal auditorium projects we have in California, multi-purpose and performing arts buildings at community colleges and K-12 make up the vast majority of these applications. In those occupancies in particular, we want everyone out - the worst case scenario is untrained staff or a student staying on stage with a fire working nearby or overhead. So leaving hoses out of the equation removes that temptation.

I'm curious about your high/low pressure tips with the removable section - what make and model of nozzles does your dept. use on the hose packs?

The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA 14 Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
San Diego, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steele, Andrew
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 6:09 AM
To: '***@lists.firesprinkler.org'
Subject: RE: Hose Valves for Stage (fire department use)

From an operations point of view, specific to my local fire department, it would make sense to have the 2-1/2 outlet even when not required.

The 1-1/2 outlet with racked hose would be for incipient fire use by the occupants, if they so choose.

The 2-1/2 outlet would be used by the responding fire department, if the outlet was (1) able to be located and (2) not within the fire area. My local fire department carries "preassembled standpipe hose pack bag" on each apparatus, setup with about five feet of 3-inch (2-1/2 couplings) to a wye, (this short section of 3 gets the wye our of a tight cabinets) and then 150-ft of 1-3/4 inch line to low pressure adjustable fog nozzles. These nozzles work at higher pressures, but also function at 65-psi, whereas our normal attack line nozzle normally get pumped at 150-psi.). These standpipe nozzles also have a removable section, to convert each nozzle from fog to a 7/8-inch straight tip (which our crews like best, as any rust debris, cigarette butts, etc., will pass through, and they work better a low pressures.).

We've had one theatre related fire within the last couple of years. It was within the carpentry shop/props department, across a hallway, from the stage. Three sprinkler heads held fire in check, but didn't fully extinguish due to shielded areas within large wall mounted prop racking. Very thick dense wood smoldering smoke throughout 1/3 of the first floor (it's a four story high-school) school, light smoke throughout most of the other first floor areas.

Andrew Steele
Fire Marshal


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***@lists.firesprinkler.org
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[Steve Leyton]

Sounds like the Dual-Force series - 55-100 PSI? G-Force are the latest with adjustable flow/pressure/shape and widest range of adjustment.

AFSA brethren: this is what it's all about. A fire official who knows exactly what is required from the hose connection to make their equipment work the way their firefighters are trained on it. Looking at the metrics Andrew gave, and using 150 GPM @ 100 PSI as a benchmark, we need to calculate the friction losses in:

5' of 3" rubber hose (negligible);
A 2½" x 1¾" x 1¾" wye flowing at least 150 GPM (+/- 4 PSI);
150 1¾" lined synthetic hose (+/- 39 PSI)

So in order to make 100 PSI residual we need about 143 PSI at the Class 1 connection. If they're pumping at 150 PSI, that leaves only 6-7 PSI for elevation and friction losses, so it's up to their engineer to overpump or - if you're coordinating this design at submittal - the FDC may be signed with the required inlet pressure that could be 165 or 170 or whatever it turns out to be, so long as it's acceptable to the responding FD.

Thank you for sharing Andrew - very good info for the design and build community.

My opinions only ...

Steve L.



-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steele, Andrew
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 1:12 PM
To: '***@lists.firesprinkler.org'
Subject: RE: Hose Valves for Stage (fire department use)

Dayton Ohio - Standpipe pack. We have Elkhart Brass's "Chief 150" nozzle for its low pressure capability (and apparently the nozzles are 30+years old now). At 50psi nozzle pressure, they flow about 109 gpm with 51-89 feet of throw, at 100lbs = 150 gpm flow and 56 to 124 feet of reach, at 150psi = 182 gpm. (From Elkhart's catalog).

All of our regular attack line, of which each engine has three (consisting of 200ft of pre-connected hose, the first section being 50-ft of 2-inch and then three 50-ft sections of 1-3/4), use Task Force Tip automatic fog nozzles. They have a listed flow of 95 to 300 gallons per minutes at 100-psi at nozzle. Our default starting pump pressure is 150-lbs.



Andrew Steele



------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 12:38 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Hose Valves for Stage (fire department use)

Tactical perspective always adds to the conversation. I'd like to pile onto your comments if I may Andrew ... If it was my choice, I would likely arrange these connections as 2½" hose connections fed by the sprinkler system as is my designer's prerogative and furnish them with 2½" x 1½" reducers as approved by the responding FD. It's the simplest configuration and as you say, it gives the FD what they need, that being a water supply connection but not a hose station. And to clarify the purpose of those hose racks, I really prefer to reference them as they're defined in the standard now - you mentioned use "by the occupants, if they so choose" but the standard defines them as, "... for use primarily by trained personnel ...". We see lots of school stages - compared to the number of community or municipal auditorium projects we have in California, multi-purpose and performing arts buildings at community colleges and K-12 make up the vast majority of these applications. In those occupancies in particular, we want everyone out - the worst case scenario is untrained staff or a student staying on stage with a fire working nearby or overhead. So leaving hoses out of the equation removes that temptation.

I'm curious about your high/low pressure tips with the removable section - what make and model of nozzles does your dept. use on the hose packs?

The foregoing is my opinion only and is not intended to represent the NFPA 14 Technical Committee, nor serve as an interpretation of the standard.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
San Diego, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steele, Andrew
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2016 6:09 AM
To: '***@lists.firesprinkler.org'
Subject: RE: Hose Valves for Stage (fire department use)

From an operations point of view, specific to my local fire department, it would make sense to have the 2-1/2 outlet even when not required.

The 1-1/2 outlet with racked hose would be for incipient fire use by the occupants, if they so choose.

The 2-1/2 outlet would be used by the responding fire department, if the outlet was (1) able to be located and (2) not within the fire area. My local fire department carries "preassembled standpipe hose pack bag" on each apparatus, setup with about five feet of 3-inch (2-1/2 couplings) to a wye, (this short section of 3 gets the wye our of a tight cabinets) and then 150-ft of 1-3/4 inch line to low pressure adjustable fog nozzles. These nozzles work at higher pressures, but also function at 65-psi, whereas our normal attack line nozzle normally get pumped at 150-psi.). These standpipe nozzles also have a removable section, to convert each nozzle from fog to a 7/8-inch straight tip (which our crews like best, as any rust debris, cigarette butts, etc., will pass through, and they work better a low pressures.).

We've had one theatre related fire within the last couple of years. It was within the carpentry shop/props department, across a hallway, from the stage. Three sprinkler heads held fire in check, but didn't fully extinguish due to shielded areas within large wall mounted prop racking. Very thick dense wood smoldering smoke throughout 1/3 of the first floor (it's a four story high-school) school, light smoke throughout most of the other first floor areas.

Andrew Steele
Fire Marshal


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