Fire pump in pit

[Travis Mack, SET]

Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as
the sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to
get these pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+
data center with a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits
dry. There is a big retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow
test, downstream of pumps, today and found this issue.

So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would
prohibit this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.
--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

[Michael Hill]

I do not remember ever seeing anything that would prohibit pumps in a pit. I
have also seen several pumps in pits (one full of water similar to the ones
you are talking about). These would make me think that they were at least
allowed in pits at some point.

Mike Hill

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:31 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Fire pump in pit

Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as the
sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to get these
pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+ data center with
a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits dry. There is a big
retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow test, downstream of pumps,
today and found this issue.

So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would prohibit
this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.

--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

[Tim Stone]

Travis,
NFPA 20, 4.12.1 Equipment protection
Also 4.12.1.1.3 preplanned with fire department.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

                117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone]   TEL: [phone]   Fax: [phone]
                           ***@comcast.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:31 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Fire pump in pit

Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as the
sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to get these
pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+ data center with
a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits dry. There is a big
retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow test, downstream of pumps,
today and found this issue.

So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would prohibit
this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.

--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

[Tom Wellen]

Same as Tim.

I had pump rooms in underground bunkers but well maintained from flooding of water. I’m not an OSHA expert, but would that be considered a concealed space where concealed space entry requirements have to be met?

Also, 2nd paragraph of A.4.17 (2013 edition) for watertight:

A.4.17 Pipe breakage caused by movement can be greatly lessened
and, in many cases, prevented by increasing flexibility
between major parts of the piping. One part of the piping
should never be held rigidly and another free to move without
provisions for relieving the strain. Flexibility can be provided by
the use of flexible couplings at critical points and by allowing
clearances at walls and floors. Fire pump suction and discharge
pipes should be treated the same as sprinkler risers for whatever
portion is within a building. (See NFPA 13.)

Holes through pump room fire walls should be packed with
mineral wool or other suitable material held in place by pipe
collars on each side of the wall. Pipes passing through foundation
walls or pit walls into the ground should have clearance
from these walls, but holes should be watertight. Space around
pipes passing through pump room walls or pump house floors
can be filled with asphalt mastic. The movement being
addressed in Section 4.18 is settling of the system and possible
vibration during the operation of the fire pump. The section
does not address anticipated earthquake forces.



Tom

Post by Tim Stone
Travis,
NFPA 20, 4.12.1 Equipment protection
Also 4.12.1.1.3 preplanned with fire department.
Regards,
G. Tim Stone
G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone] TEL: [phone] Fax: [phone]
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:31 PM
Subject: Fire pump in pit
Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as the
sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to get these
pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+ data center with
a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits dry. There is a big
retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow test, downstream of pumps,
today and found this issue.
So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would prohibit
this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.
--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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[Todd Williams]

May we assume they are not doing the weekly tests?

Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
Sent using CloudMagic
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2]
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Travis Mack, SET <***@mfpdesign.com>
wrote:
Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as
the sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to
get these pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+
data center with a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits
dry. There is a big retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow
test, downstream of pumps, today and found this issue.

So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would
prohibit this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.

--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

[Travis Mack, SET]

Now you are a comedian!! I don't think this thing has been run yearly.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Post by Todd Williams
May we assume they are not doing the weekly tests?
Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
Sent using CloudMagic
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2]
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Travis Mack, SET
Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as
the sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to
get these pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+
data center with a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits
dry. There is a big retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow
test, downstream of pumps, today and found this issue.
So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would
prohibit this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.
--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

[Todd Williams]

2 shows nightly, this Friday and Saturday at the Ramada Room. (Besides, if
I
didn't say it, Ron Greenman would). Seriously folks, perhaps between the
local
AHJ and the insurance company, they could force a good inspection program.
Multiplying the insurance premiums by 4 tends to get one's attention.

Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
Sent using CloudMagic
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2]
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Travis Mack, SET <***@mfpdesign.com>
wrote:
Now you are a comedian!! I don't think this thing has been run yearly.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Post by Todd Williams
May we assume they are not doing the weekly tests?
Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell)
Sent using CloudMagic
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2]
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Travis Mack, SET
Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as
the sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to
get these pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+
data center with a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits
dry. There is a big retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow
test, downstream of pumps, today and found this issue.
So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would
prohibit this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.
--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Post by Todd Williams
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

[John Drucker - Home]

2013 NFPA-20

4.12.1 General Requirements. "The fire pump, driver, controller,
water supply, and power supply shall be protected against
possible interruption of service through damage caused by explosion,
fire, flood, earthquake, rodents, insects, windstorm,
freezing, vandalism, and other adverse conditions."

As a an AHJ would never allow this.

Hope this helps


John Drucker, CET
Assistant Construction Official
Fire Protection Subcode Official
Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector
Borough of Red Bank
Red Bank, New Jersey
Email: ***@redbanknj.org
Cell/Text: 732-904-6823



-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:31 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Fire pump in pit

Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as the
sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to get these
pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+ data center with
a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits dry. There is a big
retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow test, downstream of pumps,
today and found this issue.

So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would prohibit
this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.

--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

[Scott Futrell]

And then there is confined space entry...

Scott

Office: [phone] x 202
Cell: [phone]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker - Home
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 7:42 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit

2013 NFPA-20

4.12.1 General Requirements. "The fire pump, driver, controller, water supply, and power supply shall be protected against possible interruption of service through damage caused by explosion, fire, flood, earthquake, rodents, insects, windstorm, freezing, vandalism, and other adverse conditions."

As a an AHJ would never allow this.

Hope this helps


John Drucker, CET
Assistant Construction Official
Fire Protection Subcode Official
Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector
Borough of Red Bank
Red Bank, New Jersey
Email: ***@redbanknj.org
Cell/Text: 732-904-6823



-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:31 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Fire pump in pit

Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as the sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to get these pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+ data center with a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits dry. There is a big retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow test, downstream of pumps, today and found this issue.

So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would prohibit this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data center at risk.

--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

[Tim Stone]

Document OSHA 1910, "existing confined spaces"
As john and I both mentioned, NFPA 20 should provide enough information to
get the pumps out of the pits.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

                117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone]   TEL: [phone]   Fax: [phone]
                           ***@comcast.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Scott Futrell
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 9:04 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit

And then there is confined space entry...

Scott

Office: [phone] x 202
Cell: [phone]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of John Drucker - Home
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 7:42 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit

2013 NFPA-20

4.12.1 General Requirements. "The fire pump, driver, controller, water
supply, and power supply shall be protected against possible interruption of
service through damage caused by explosion, fire, flood, earthquake,
rodents, insects, windstorm, freezing, vandalism, and other adverse
conditions."

As a an AHJ would never allow this.

Hope this helps


John Drucker, CET
Assistant Construction Official
Fire Protection Subcode Official
Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector
Borough of Red Bank
Red Bank, New Jersey
Email: ***@redbanknj.org
Cell/Text: 732-904-6823



-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:31 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Fire pump in pit

Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as the
sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to get these
pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+ data center with
a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits dry. There is a big
retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow test, downstream of pumps,
today and found this issue.

So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would prohibit
this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.

--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org


_______________________________________________
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***@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

[Scott Futrell]

Tim, I'm not sure exactly what that standard states, but I can't imagine not complying with all of the confined space entry requirements prior to entering a below ground fire pump pit for work or testing. Just because a pit is existing doesn't mean the same hazards don't apply or that someone won't get hurt operating or testing a fire pump or equipment.

I would say the combination of NFPA 20 and OSHA requirements would seal the deal.

Scott

Office: [phone] x 202
Cell: [phone]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tim Stone
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 6:50 AM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit

Document OSHA 1910, "existing confined spaces"
As john and I both mentioned, NFPA 20 should provide enough information to get the pumps out of the pits.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

                117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone]   TEL: [phone]   Fax: [phone]
                           ***@comcast.net

[Tim Stone]

Scott, Any argument to get the fire pumps out of the pits.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

                117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone]   TEL: [phone]   Fax: [phone]
                           ***@comcast.net


-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Scott Futrell
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 7:59 AM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit


Tim, I'm not sure exactly what that standard states, but I can't imagine not
complying with all of the confined space entry requirements prior to
entering a below ground fire pump pit for work or testing. Just because a
pit is existing doesn't mean the same hazards don't apply or that someone
won't get hurt operating or testing a fire pump or equipment.

I would say the combination of NFPA 20 and OSHA requirements would seal the
deal.

Scott

Office: [phone] x 202
Cell: [phone]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Tim Stone
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 6:50 AM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit

Document OSHA 1910, "existing confined spaces"
As john and I both mentioned, NFPA 20 should provide enough information to
get the pumps out of the pits.

Regards,
G. Tim Stone

G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services

                117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone]   TEL: [phone]   Fax: [phone]
                           ***@comcast.net

[Bruce Verhei]

I've been trying to visualize the why of this installation in the first instance. It sounds more expensive.

It would be cheaper to pipe up to a slab, and raised motor mount level than to form and pour a pit. A designer fix to trying to meet ten diameters of straight run on inlet side? Move the pump instead of changing pipe layout?

What am I missing?

Best

Bruce Verhei

Post by Tim Stone
Scott, Any argument to get the fire pumps out of the pits.
Regards,
G. Tim Stone
G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone] TEL: [phone] Fax: [phone]
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Scott Futrell
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 7:59 AM
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit
Tim, I'm not sure exactly what that standard states, but I can't imagine not
complying with all of the confined space entry requirements prior to
entering a below ground fire pump pit for work or testing. Just because a
pit is existing doesn't mean the same hazards don't apply or that someone
won't get hurt operating or testing a fire pump or equipment.
I would say the combination of NFPA 20 and OSHA requirements would seal the deal.
Scott
Office: [phone] x 202
Cell: [phone]
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Tim Stone
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 6:50 AM
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit
Document OSHA 1910, "existing confined spaces"
As john and I both mentioned, NFPA 20 should provide enough information to
get the pumps out of the pits.
Regards,
G. Tim Stone
G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician
Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone] TEL: [phone] Fax: [phone]
_______________________________________________
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[Tim Stone]

Existing pumps in pits need to be replaced.


-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 10:54 AM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Fire pump in pit

I've been trying to visualize the why of this installation in the first
instance. It sounds more expensive.

It would be cheaper to pipe up to a slab, and raised motor mount level than
to form and pour a pit. A designer fix to trying to meet ten diameters of
straight run on inlet side? Move the pump instead of changing pipe layout?

What am I missing?

Best

Bruce Verhei

Post by Tim Stone
Scott, Any argument to get the fire pumps out of the pits.
Regards,
G. Tim Stone
G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician Fire Protection Sprinkler
Design and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone] TEL: [phone] Fax: [phone]
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum
On Behalf Of Scott Futrell
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 7:59 AM
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit
Tim, I'm not sure exactly what that standard states, but I can't
imagine not complying with all of the confined space entry
requirements prior to entering a below ground fire pump pit for work
or testing. Just because a pit is existing doesn't mean the same
hazards don't apply or that someone won't get hurt operating or testing a

fire pump or equipment.

Post by Tim Stone
I would say the combination of NFPA 20 and OSHA requirements would seal the deal.
Scott
Office: [phone] x 202
Cell: [phone]
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum
On Behalf Of Tim Stone
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 6:50 AM
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit
Document OSHA 1910, "existing confined spaces"
As john and I both mentioned, NFPA 20 should provide enough
information to get the pumps out of the pits.
Regards,
G. Tim Stone
G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC
NICET Level III Engineering Technician Fire Protection Sprinkler
Design and Consulting Services
117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
CELL: [phone] TEL: [phone] Fax: [phone]
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[Travis Mack, SET]

That is my exact feeling. I was completely surprised to see this
installation.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Post by Tim Stone
Existing pumps in pits need to be replaced.

[C***@ch2m.com]

This is one of those cases where I would love to know what the engineer was thinking along with the AHJ and Insurer who all approved this installation.

Craig L. Prahl
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29303
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension 74102
***@ch2m.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 11:04 AM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Fire pump in pit

That is my exact feeling. I was completely surprised to see this installation.

Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Post by Tim Stone
Existing pumps in pits need to be replaced.

[Dan Arbel]

I have investigated several dozens of flooded pump rooms ...

Dan

Dan Arbel Risk Engineering
T: 972-4-8243337
F: 972-4-8243278
M: 972-52-6611337
Mail: ***@riskmanage.com
W: www.riskmanage.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Scott Futrell
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 4:04 AM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit

And then there is confined space entry...

Scott

Office: [phone] x 202
Cell: [phone]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of John Drucker - Home
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 7:42 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit

2013 NFPA-20

4.12.1 General Requirements. "The fire pump, driver, controller, water
supply, and power supply shall be protected against possible interruption of
service through damage caused by explosion, fire, flood, earthquake,
rodents, insects, windstorm, freezing, vandalism, and other adverse
conditions."

As a an AHJ would never allow this.

Hope this helps


John Drucker, CET
Assistant Construction Official
Fire Protection Subcode Official
Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector
Borough of Red Bank
Red Bank, New Jersey
Email: ***@redbanknj.org
Cell/Text: 732-904-6823



-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:31 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Fire pump in pit

Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as the
sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to get these
pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+ data center with
a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits dry. There is a big
retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow test, downstream of pumps,
today and found this issue.

So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would prohibit
this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.

--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

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[Michael Hill]

As contractors, depending on which side we are trying to prove, the sump
pump is either sufficient to meet this section or it is not enough.
Confined space entry may be the best way to get the pump out of the pit.

Mike Hill

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of John Drucker - Home
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 8:42 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit

2013 NFPA-20

4.12.1 General Requirements. "The fire pump, driver, controller, water
supply, and power supply shall be protected against possible interruption of
service through damage caused by explosion, fire, flood, earthquake,
rodents, insects, windstorm, freezing, vandalism, and other adverse
conditions."

As a an AHJ would never allow this.

Hope this helps


John Drucker, CET
Assistant Construction Official
Fire Protection Subcode Official
Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector
Borough of Red Bank
Red Bank, New Jersey
Email: ***@redbanknj.org
Cell/Text: 732-904-6823



-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:31 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Fire pump in pit

Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as the
sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to get these
pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+ data center with
a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits dry. There is a big
retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow test, downstream of pumps,
today and found this issue.

So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would prohibit
this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.

--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
email:***@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

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Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

[Brad Casterline]

Might want to get the controllers out too :)

b

Post by Michael Hill
As contractors, depending on which side we are trying to prove, the sump
pump is either sufficient to meet this section or it is not enough.
Confined space entry may be the best way to get the pump out of the pit.
Mike Hill
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of John Drucker - Home
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: Fire pump in pit
2013 NFPA-20
4.12.1 General Requirements. "The fire pump, driver, controller, water
supply, and power supply shall be protected against possible interruption of
service through damage caused by explosion, fire, flood, earthquake,
rodents, insects, windstorm, freezing, vandalism, and other adverse
conditions."
As a an AHJ would never allow this.
Hope this helps
John Drucker, CET
Assistant Construction Official
Fire Protection Subcode Official
Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector
Borough of Red Bank
Red Bank, New Jersey
Cell/Text: 732-904-6823
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 3:31 PM
Subject: Fire pump in pit
Is there anything in NFPA 20 that would prohibit a fire pump from being
located in a pit? We have a project with 2 pumps. This is an existing
facility. These pumps are in two separate pits. One is diesel, one is
electric. Currently, both of the pits are about half full of water as the
sump pumps failed in both. We are trying to convince the owner to get these
pumps above grade. It seems stupid to protect a $$million+ data center with
a system, then rely on a $20 sump pump to keep the pits dry. There is a big
retrofit at this site. Tried to do a site flow test, downstream of pumps,
today and found this issue.
So, just hoping to be able to find code/standard section that would prohibit
this. Owner's first thought is to just make band-aid repairs.
But, we are all concerned that this will happen again and leave the data
center at risk.
--
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: [phone]
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
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[å... ....]

I see fire pumps and tanks far too often in the center of large structures
down in the sub-basement.

Sometimes the fire protection engineer in charge is a whiz-bang
Computational Fluid Dynamic simulation artist, but has a disdain for the
sprikler vein of the business. It can be hard to convince an engineer who
has used a computer to validate smoke dampers for much of their career,
that bricks and mortar work offer better fire protection than MS Windows
activated smoke curtains. But this is ofen the mentality of the engineer
who is chosen to represent fire protection at the upfront meetings. Worse
still is a fire protection professional will not even be invited to the
pre-FEED table. Often the civil or mechanical engineer at pre-FEED locates
the fire pump in close to dead-center of the building, for what is a good
reason to their thinking: reduced hydraulic demand to remote areas.

But what they don't consider is in the 1 in 300+ year building fire is:

1. fire department using the fire pump room during live fire operations
2. the water tank is next to these sub basement fire pumps, virtually
assuring wet or leaky conditions years on
3. maintenance and repair suggests someone will have to take the pump out,
and a new pump in, piece by piece.
4. if there is a fire in the basement, it has chance to contaminate the air
consumed by the pump's diesel motor

Many of these buildings are large enough that if they simply put the tank
at grade, they would have enough pressure in the basements from gravity to
operate the first half dozen sprinklers, in the event of fire pump failure.

Fire protection, being a cost item, requires fine diplomatic and
negotiating skills to optimize our systems. Many jurisdictions have
different tolerances to fire risk than held by North Americans, and to
their credit, these other jurisdictions are much more realistic about
accepting 1 in 300+ year building fire.

Each situation deserves its own evaluation. But I have yet to find an
occassion justifying spending 300+k$ on two fire pumps and a tank, only to
install them at the sub-basement of a building.

Thank you all for the excellent discussion and references to OSHA, NFPA 13
and NFPA 20 on this subject.

Scot Deal
Excelsior Fire/Risk Engineering
gsm: + 420 722 141 478