can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Discussion:

S***@aerofire.com

2015-12-22 16:14:34 UTC

Hi All,

I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013.

Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements, vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray sprinklers, ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright, sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable?

The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is required, please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and design parameters. Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black and white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time and help!

Thanks,
Sean VG

Richard Carr

2015-12-22 16:18:51 UTC

Permalink

Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall.

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

-------- Original message --------
From: ***@aerofire.com
Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Hi All,

I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013.

Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements, vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray sprinklers, ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright, sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable?

The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is required, please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and design parameters. Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black and white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time and help!

Thanks,
Sean VG

Brad Casterline

2015-12-22 16:58:08 UTC

Permalink

Sean, I found this in the archives:
*****
Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a room
(flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the
sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit.

In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away from a
wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents and
uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls to
be installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed"
sidewall be installed elsewhere?

Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the
sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC
responses from the committee that would help answer the question?

Thoughts?

Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor)
Office of Research Services
National Institutes of Health
301-496-0487

Duane,

NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and
horizontal sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected
from.

Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as a
pendant.

Dale F. Wingard, SET
Design Manager
Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc.
251.649.2034
***@aaafp.com

********
Brad

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Richard Carr
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall.

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

-------- Original message --------
From: ***@aerofire.com
Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Hi All,

I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't loading
for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013.

Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements, vertical
distance below the deck requirements, standard spray sprinklers, ordinary
hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from branchline to
branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright, sidewall facing
right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With spacing from upright to
upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to backside of sidewall of 6ft,
and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall face equal to 20ft. Is this
acceptable?

The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to something
like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of now, no, there
is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is required, please help me
find the direction in the code for this requirement and design parameters.
Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people can
interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black and
white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly
appreciated.

Thank you for your time and help!

Thanks,
Sean VG

_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

S***@aerofire.com

2015-12-22 17:54:03 UTC

Permalink

Thank you Richard and Brad.

These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this point we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane brought up, we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be installed in "exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks" by the committee if no other testing has been done.

Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining characteristics of this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far as I know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I am going too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states the following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall sprinklers are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam". Since they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation, can I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from (6) different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses". First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3) have their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the most preferred but probably won't be
accepted.

(1) Build a wall.
(2) Install a beam.
(3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can be installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be sufficient. Since the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the heads every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls.
(4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since this is acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, it will clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to operate. This would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the sprinklers. No apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing.
(5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor. This would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart.
(6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, but rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the definition for Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6" high, be between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least even with the deflector.

Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do you see any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"?

I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to listen to me ramble on.

Thanks,
Sean VG

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Sean, I found this in the archives:
*****
Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a room (flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit.

In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away from a
wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents and uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls to be installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed"
sidewall be installed elsewhere?

Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC responses from the committee that would help answer the question?

Thoughts?

Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research Services National Institutes of Health
301-496-0487

Duane,

NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and horizontal sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected from.

Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as a pendant.

Dale F. Wingard, SET
Design Manager
Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc.
251.649.2034
***@aaafp.com

********
Brad

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Richard Carr
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall.

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

-------- Original message --------
From: ***@aerofire.com
Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Hi All,

I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013.

Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?

Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements, vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray sprinklers, ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright, sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable?

The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is required, please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and design parameters.
Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black and white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time and help!

Thanks,
Sean VG

_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Brad Casterline

2015-12-22 22:48:53 UTC

Permalink

No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation.
I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced though because
in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and whether the door is
up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the 'exposed
sidewall'. Not so with one compliment.
If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I would
advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some primitive,
course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times for
water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) slow the
velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- RTI is
based on temp AND velocity.

I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a little
early today-
I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post the link
to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real life
application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :)

B-rad

Post by S***@aerofire.com
Thank you Richard and Brad.
These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this point
we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane brought up, we
were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be expected
to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be installed in
"exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks" by
the committee if no other testing has been done.
Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector
accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining characteristics of
this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far as I
know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I am going
too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states the
following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall sprinklers
are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam". Since
they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation, can
I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to
ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from (6)
different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses".
First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3) have
their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the most
preferred but probably won't be
accepted.
(1) Build a wall.
(2) Install a beam.
(3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can be
installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be sufficient. Since
the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the heads
every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls.
(4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since this is
acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, it will
clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to operate. This
would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the sprinklers. No
apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing.
(5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is
acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor. This
would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart.
(6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, but
rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the definition for
Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6" high, be
between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least even
with the deflector.
Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do you see
any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"?
I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to listen to me ramble on.
Thanks,
Sean VG
-----Original Message-----
Casterline
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
*****
Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a room
(flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the
sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit.
In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away from a
wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents and
uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls to be
installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed"
sidewall be installed elsewhere?
Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the sprinkler
be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC responses from the
committee that would help answer the question?
Thoughts?
Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research
Services National Institutes of Health
301-496-0487
Duane,
NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and horizontal
sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected from.
Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as a pendant.
Dale F. Wingard, SET
Design Manager
Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc.
251.649.2034
********
Brad
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Richard Carr
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall.
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------
Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Hi All,
I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't
loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013.
Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements,
vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray sprinklers,
ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from
branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright,
sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With
spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to
backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall
face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable?
The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to something
like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of now, no,
there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is required, please
help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and design
parameters.
Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people can
interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black and
white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly
appreciated.
Thank you for your time and help!
Thanks,
Sean VG
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Brad Casterline

2015-12-22 23:05:29 UTC

Permalink

*coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not to enhance
sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing how to trim threads
when at home using my phone.

Post by Brad Casterline
No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation.
I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced though
because in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and whether the
door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the 'exposed
sidewall'. Not so with one compliment.
If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I would
advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some primitive,
course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times for
water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) slow the
velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- RTI is
based on temp AND velocity.
I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a little
early today-
I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post the
link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real life
application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :)
B-rad

Post by S***@aerofire.com
Thank you Richard and Brad.
These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this
point we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane brought up,
we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be
expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be installed in
"exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks" by
the committee if no other testing has been done.
Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector
accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining characteristics of
this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far as I
know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I am going
too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states the
following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall sprinklers
are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam". Since
they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation, can
I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to
ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from (6)
different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses".
First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3) have
their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the most
preferred but probably won't be
accepted.
(1) Build a wall.
(2) Install a beam.
(3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can be
installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be sufficient. Since
the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the heads
every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls.
(4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since this is
acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, it will
clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to operate. This
would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the sprinklers. No
apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing.
(5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is
acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor. This
would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart.
(6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, but
rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the definition for
Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6" high, be
between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least even
with the deflector.
Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do you see
any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"?
I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to listen to me ramble on.
Thanks,
Sean VG
-----Original Message-----
Casterline
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
*****
Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a room
(flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the
sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit.
In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away from a
wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents and
uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls to be
installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed"
sidewall be installed elsewhere?
Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the
sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC
responses from the committee that would help answer the question?
Thoughts?
Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research
Services National Institutes of Health
301-496-0487
Duane,
NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and horizontal
sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected from.
Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as a pendant.
Dale F. Wingard, SET
Design Manager
Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc.
251.649.2034
********
Brad
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Richard Carr
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall.
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------
Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Hi All,
I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't
loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013.
Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements,
vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray sprinklers,
ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from
branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright,
sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With
spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to
backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall
face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable?
The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to
something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of
now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is required,
please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and
design parameters.
Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people
can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black and
white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly
appreciated.
Thank you for your time and help!
Thanks,
Sean VG
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Brad Casterline

2015-12-24 01:42:44 UTC

Permalink

A few more things Sean then I'll be able to sleep-
1) you're welcome
2) you have put a lot of good thought into this, and thank you for
prompting the ponderance
3) distinct sidewalls back-to-back in the middle of a space without a
baffle or beam to prevent cold soldering is a no go I realize now, but with
a baffle or beam the head on the opposite side of the ignition point might
not activate due to the way the ceiling jet hits the beam, goes under it,
and comes back up the other side-- the opposite side spinkler, being above
the bottom and close to the side of the beam leaves it in a "slow and cold
pocket".
The best thing would be a Tyco type back to back attic head, (2 sidewalls
with one element) but they would have to bend both deflectors up to work
with a flat ceiling :) unless the ceiling height was up there a ways.
4) seems like you guys there at Aero are really on the ball!!!-- prime
candidates for some serious fire modeling. . .

wbr, Brad

Post by Brad Casterline
*coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not to
enhance sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing how to trim
threads when at home using my phone.

Post by Brad Casterline
No better subject to ramble on about than sprinkler activation.
I think citing sidewalls under an overhead door is misplaced though
because in that case there is an 'above AND below' setup, and whether the
door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the 'exposed
sidewall'. Not so with one compliment.
If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I would
advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some primitive,
course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times for
water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) slow the
velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- RTI is
based on temp AND velocity.
I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a
little early today-
I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post the
link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real life
application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :)
B-rad

Post by S***@aerofire.com
Thank you Richard and Brad.
These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this
point we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane brought up,
we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be
expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be installed in
"exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks" by
the committee if no other testing has been done.
Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector
accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining characteristics of
this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far as I
know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I am going
too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states the
following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall sprinklers
are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam". Since
they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation, can
I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to
ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from (6)
different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses".
First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3) have
their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the most
preferred but probably won't be
accepted.
(1) Build a wall.
(2) Install a beam.
(3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can be
installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be sufficient. Since
the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the heads
every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls.
(4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since this is
acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, it will
clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to operate. This
would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the sprinklers. No
apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing.
(5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is
acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor. This
would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart.
(6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, but
rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the definition for
Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6" high, be
between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least even
with the deflector.
Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do you see
any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"?
I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to listen
to me ramble on.
Thanks,
Sean VG
-----Original Message-----
Casterline
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
*****
Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a room
(flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the
sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit.
In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away from a
wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents and
uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls to be
installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed"
sidewall be installed elsewhere?
Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the
sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC
responses from the committee that would help answer the question?
Thoughts?
Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research
Services National Institutes of Health
301-496-0487
Duane,
NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and
horizontal sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected from.
Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as a pendant.
Dale F. Wingard, SET
Design Manager
Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc.
251.649.2034
********
Brad
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Richard Carr
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall.
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------
Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Hi All,
I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't
loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013.
Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements,
vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray sprinklers,
ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from
branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright,
sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With
spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to
backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall
face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable?
The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to
something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of
now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is required,
please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and
design parameters.
Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people
can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black and
white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly
appreciated.
Thank you for your time and help!
Thanks,
Sean VG
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
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Rahe Loftin - 7PMC

2015-12-25 12:11:21 UTC

Permalink

Sidewall heads without a wall is one thing, but what about sidewalls at the
bottom of elevator shafts that have a wall but no ceiling?

*Success Through Code Compliance*

*Rahe Loftin, PE *
*Regional Fire Protection Engineer*
*General Services Administration*
*Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA*
*Facilities Management & Support 7PMC*
*c - 817-371-3102*
*o - 817-978-7299*

Post by Brad Casterline
A few more things Sean then I'll be able to sleep-
1) you're welcome
2) you have put a lot of good thought into this, and thank you for
prompting the ponderance
3) distinct sidewalls back-to-back in the middle of a space without a
baffle or beam to prevent cold soldering is a no go I realize now, but with
a baffle or beam the head on the opposite side of the ignition point might
not activate due to the way the ceiling jet hits the beam, goes under it,
and comes back up the other side-- the opposite side spinkler, being above
the bottom and close to the side of the beam leaves it in a "slow and cold
pocket".
The best thing would be a Tyco type back to back attic head, (2 sidewalls
with one element) but they would have to bend both deflectors up to work
with a flat ceiling :) unless the ceiling height was up there a ways.
4) seems like you guys there at Aero are really on the ball!!!-- prime
candidates for some serious fire modeling. . .
wbr, Brad

Post by Brad Casterline
*coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not to
enhance sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing how to

trim

Post by Brad Casterline
threads when at home using my phone.

the

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by Brad Casterline
door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the

'exposed

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by Brad Casterline
sidewall'. Not so with one compliment.
If you did the back-to-back sidewalls in the middle of the space I would
advocate no wall, baffle, or beam, that being based on some primitive,
course modeling I did several years ago looking at activation times for
water curtains with and without a draft stop: with seemed to 1) slow the
velocity of the ceiling jet a tad and 2) block half the pattern-- RTI is
based on temp AND velocity.
I've been modeling this all afternoon in my mind because I skated a
little early today-
I'll actually do it I'm sure, soon, make a youtube movie, and post the
link to that here-- but, you should resign yourself, re. any real life
application to using a sideWALL essentially with a 'wall' :) ;) :)
B-rad

Post by S***@aerofire.com
Thank you Richard and Brad.
These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this
point we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane

brought up,

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be
expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be

installed in

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
"exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks"

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
the committee if no other testing has been done.
Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector
accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining

characteristics of

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far as

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I am

going

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states

the

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall

sprinklers

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam".

Since

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation,

can

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to
ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from

(6)

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses".
First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3)

have

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the

most

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
preferred but probably won't be
accepted.
(1) Build a wall.
(2) Install a beam.
(3) Use the definition of Compartment from 3.3.6. A sidewall can be
installed in a "compartment", so an 8" lintel should be sufficient.

Since

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the

heads

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
every 8ft and run the lintel the length of the sidewalls.
(4) Use the definition of Draft Curtain from 8.4.6.4.1. Since this is
acceptable to separate sprinklers with different response times, it

will

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to operate.

This

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the

sprinklers. No

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
apparent restriction on sprinkler spacing.
(5) Use the definition of Draft Stop from 8.15.4.2. Since this is
acceptable to delay heat traveling vertically from floor to floor.

This

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
would require a barrier 18in deep with heads spaced 6ft apart.
(6) If we decide the wall/beam isn't required to be a heat trap, but
rather a protection of spray from other sprinklers. Use the

definition for

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6"

high, be

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least

even

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
with the deflector.
Obviously I would like to choose (6) if acceptable. However do you see
any viability of these (4) "educated guesses"?
I appreciate any further input/opinion and of course your time to

listen

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
to me ramble on.
Thanks,
Sean VG
-----Original Message-----
Casterline
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a

wall?

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
*****
Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a

room

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
(flat, smooth clg) provided sprinkler coverage is added behind the
sidewall? In other words, not installed near a wall or soffit.
In reality a sidewall installed 4" to 6" below the ceiling (away from a
wall/soffit) should activate in similar fashion as exposed pendents and
uprights (1" - 12" below clg). If code permits "exposed" sidewalls to

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
installed below roll up doors without soffits, can't an "exposed"
sidewall be installed elsewhere?
Is there anything in the listing of a sidewall that requires the
sprinkler be installed on a wall or soffit? Are there any ROP/ROC
responses from the committee that would help answer the question?
Thoughts?
Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research
Services National Institutes of Health
301-496-0487
Duane,
NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and
horizontal sidewalls in relation to the wall that they are projected

from.

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
Sidewall sprinklers cannot be positioned in the center of a room as a pendant.
Dale F. Wingard, SET
Design Manager
Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc.
251.649.2034
********
Brad
-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Richard Carr
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a

wall?

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
Under overhead doors is only place I know is acceptable without a wall.
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------
Date: 12/22/2015 11:14 AM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Hi All,
I can't check the forum archives right now because the website isn't
loading for me for some reason. Based on NFPA 13 2013.
Can sidewalls be installed when not located next to a wall?
Assuming we meet the all the minimum/maximum spacing requirements,
vertical distance below the deck requirements, standard spray

sprinklers,

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
ordinary hazard occupancy, noncombustible construction. Walking from
branchline to branchline left to right, can I install upright, upright,
sidewall facing right, sidewall facing left, upright, upright. With
spacing from upright to upright equal to 12ft, spacing from upright to
backside of sidewall of 6ft, and spacing from sidewall face to sidewall
face equal to 20ft. Is this acceptable?
The first thing most people say is "will the sidewall be next to
something like a baffle or installed with the pipe in a soffit?" As of
now, no, there is nothing behind the sidewalls. If something is

required,

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
please help me find the direction in the code for this requirement and
design parameters.
Because right now all I am finding is a lot of "grey" area that people
can interpret whichever way suits their needs. I'm looking for "black

and

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
white" if it is in there. If it's only "grey", opinions are greatly
appreciated.
Thank you for your time and help!
Thanks,
Sean VG
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
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Charles Thurston

2015-12-25 13:37:51 UTC

Permalink

Hello Rahe,

Works good when the car is at the bottom of the shaft.

Post by Rahe Loftin - 7PMC
Sidewall heads without a wall is one thing, but what about sidewalls at the
bottom of elevator shafts that have a wall but no ceiling?
*Success Through Code Compliance*
*Rahe Loftin, PE *
*Regional Fire Protection Engineer*
*General Services Administration*
*Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA*
*Facilities Management & Support 7PMC*
*c - 817-371-3102*
*o - 817-978-7299*

Post by Brad Casterline
*coarse. And an 18" deep draft stop is for containing smoke, not to
enhance sprinkler activation, and, I apologise for not knowing how to

trim

Post by Brad Casterline
threads when at home using my phone.

the

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by Brad Casterline
door is up or down the fire has to be pretty much right under the

'exposed

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
Thank you Richard and Brad.
These are some of the exact points I was looking at/for. Up to this
point we had only used them under garage doors. But like Duane

brought up,

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
we were wondering if they can be installed under garage doors and be
expected to operate, then shouldn't they also be allowed to be

installed in

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
"exposed" scenarios. Maybe this just one of those "calculated risks"

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
the committee if no other testing has been done.
Moving on, so if I follow 8.7.4.1.2.2, and located the deflector
accordingly off the "wall". What are the other defining

characteristics of

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
this "wall"? How deep is it? How long does it have to be? As far as

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
know "wall" isn't defined in Chapter 3. You may laugh and think I am

going

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
too far with this, but one of the major sprinkler manufactures states

the

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
following in one of their product listings "Horizontal sidewall

sprinklers

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
are designed for installation along a wall or the side of a beam".

Since

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
they are clearly indicating beams are acceptable for proper operation,

can

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
I assume "wall" in 8.7.4.1.2.2 doesn't mean it has to run from floor to
ceiling. From this point going forward I can see someone arguing from

(6)

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
different routes, some of which could be considered "educated guesses".
First (2) should be completely acceptable but not preferred, Next (3)

have

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
their pros/cons and varying degrees of applicability, last (1) is the

most

Post by Brad Casterline

Since

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
the 8" lintel allows a maximum opening of 8ft in the wall, space the

heads

Post by Brad Casterline

will

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
clearly delay the heat travel long enough for a sprinkler to operate.

This

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
would require a barrier 2ft deep running the length of the

sprinklers. No

Post by Brad Casterline

This

Post by Brad Casterline

definition for

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
Baffles with Sidewalls 8.7.3.4. Baffles are at least 8" long, 6"

high, be

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
between 2in and 3in above the deflector, and the bottom be at least

even

Post by Brad Casterline

listen

Post by Brad Casterline

wall?

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
*****
Can a horizontal sidewall sprinkler be installed in the center of a

room

Post by Brad Casterline

from.

Post by Brad Casterline

wall?

Post by Brad Casterline

sprinklers,

Post by Brad Casterline

required,

Post by Brad Casterline

and

Post by Brad Casterline

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list

http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

Post by Brad Casterline

Post by S***@aerofire.com
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list

_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

--
Best regards,
Charles mailto:***@mbfsg.com

Rahe Loftin - 7PMC

2015-12-25 23:30:51 UTC

Permalink

Charles,
True if the elevator car is within 12 inches of the head but, of course,
not when it is any other position. Furthermore, what about the listing of
the sidewall head for a flat, horizontal, smooth ceiling? This certainly
does not describe the bottom of an elevator car.

*Success Through Code Compliance*

*Rahe Loftin, PE *
*Regional Fire Protection Engineer*
*General Services Administration*
*Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA*
*Facilities Management & Support 7PMC*
*c - 817-371-3102*
*o - 817-978-7299*

Post by Charles Thurston
Hello Rahe,
Works good when the car is at the bottom of the shaft.

Post by Rahe Loftin - 7PMC
Sidewall heads without a wall is one thing, but what about sidewalls at

the

Post by Rahe Loftin - 7PMC
bottom of elevator shafts that have a wall but no ceiling?
*Success Through Code Compliance*
*Rahe Loftin, PE *
*Regional Fire Protection Engineer*
*General Services Administration*
*Region 7 - TX, OK, NM, AR, LA*
*Facilities Management & Support 7PMC*
*c - 817-371-3102*
*o - 817-978-7299*

with