Discussion:
Frozen open PIV
Jeff Bridges
2014-11-25 01:08:21 UTC
Permalink
We have a Post indicator valve that controls a single interior riser.

We discovered during routine testing the PIV is frozen.

The sign indicates it's in the open position and main drain test shows no
abnormalities from previous inspections.

We proposed replacing the PIV and valve- another company proposed yanking
the post, leaving the valve and simply adding a BFV on the riser.

Acceptable alternative?
M***@aerofire.com
2014-11-25 02:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Did you check to see if it is a left hand valve? I've run into this in the past.

Mark at Aero
602 820-7894

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Jeff Bridges
We have a Post indicator valve that controls a single interior riser.
We discovered during routine testing the PIV is frozen.
The sign indicates it's in the open position and main drain test shows no
abnormalities from previous inspections.
We proposed replacing the PIV and valve- another company proposed yanking
the post, leaving the valve and simply adding a BFV on the riser.
Acceptable alternative?
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j***@jbfireprotection.com
2014-11-25 02:24:55 UTC
Permalink
Good question.
Yes we did and we pulled the top off the post as well to verify it was a valve issue and not the post. It also was completely covered in ivy leading us to believe it had not been exercised for many years despite inspection tags. W

Jeff
JB Fire Protection
Sent from my iPhone
Post by M***@aerofire.com
Did you check to see if it is a left hand valve? I've run into this in the past.
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
Sent from my iPhone
Post by Jeff Bridges
We have a Post indicator valve that controls a single interior riser.
We discovered during routine testing the PIV is frozen.
The sign indicates it's in the open position and main drain test shows no
abnormalities from previous inspections.
We proposed replacing the PIV and valve- another company proposed yanking
the post, leaving the valve and simply adding a BFV on the riser.
Acceptable alternative?
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Matt Willis
2014-11-25 15:22:43 UTC
Permalink
To answer your original question, I believe it is acceptable. However; I also feel this moves you to 13 and needing hydraulics to prove the new valve will work since you are not replacing "Like for Like"

R/
Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of ***@jbfireprotection.com
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 7:25 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Frozen open PIV

Good question.
Yes we did and we pulled the top off the post as well to verify it was a valve issue and not the post. It also was completely covered in ivy leading us to believe it had not been exercised for many years despite inspection tags. W

Jeff
JB Fire Protection
Sent from my iPhone
Post by M***@aerofire.com
Did you check to see if it is a left hand valve? I've run into this in the past.
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
Sent from my iPhone
Post by Jeff Bridges
We have a Post indicator valve that controls a single interior riser.
We discovered during routine testing the PIV is frozen.
The sign indicates it's in the open position and main drain test
shows no abnormalities from previous inspections.
We proposed replacing the PIV and valve- another company proposed
yanking the post, leaving the valve and simply adding a BFV on the riser.
Acceptable alternative?
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink
ler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl
er.org
Cahill, Christopher
2014-11-25 15:30:39 UTC
Permalink
So, it's broke and you/they don't know why? And you are sure it's going to stay broke that way until at least the day after the fire. Then yep no problem abandoning and installing a new valve inside provided the AHJ doesn't require PIV's.

Chris Cahill, PE*
Associate Fire Protection Engineer
Burns & McDonnell
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax:  952.229.2923
***@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com
*Registered in: MN


Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For
Post by Jeff Bridges
Post by Jeff Bridges
We have a Post indicator valve that controls a single interior riser.
We discovered during routine testing the PIV is frozen.
The sign indicates it's in the open position and main drain test
shows no abnormalities from previous inspections.
We proposed replacing the PIV and valve- another company proposed
yanking the post, leaving the valve and simply adding a BFV on the riser.
Acceptable alternative?
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink
ler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl
er.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
***@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Art Tiroly
2014-11-25 17:25:41 UTC
Permalink
The operating rod won't turn the gate valve? Last time someone jammed the
valve open. If you dump oil down the PIV for lubrication it may allow it the
valve to free up. Use a bigger wrench with longer handle.


Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell



-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of ***@jbfireprotection.com
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 9:25 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Frozen open PIV

Good question.
Yes we did and we pulled the top off the post as well to verify it was a
valve issue and not the post. It also was completely covered in ivy leading
us to believe it had not been exercised for many years despite inspection
tags. W

Jeff
JB Fire Protection
Sent from my iPhone
Post by M***@aerofire.com
Did you check to see if it is a left hand valve? I've run into this in the past.
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
Sent from my iPhone
Post by Jeff Bridges
We have a Post indicator valve that controls a single interior riser.
We discovered during routine testing the PIV is frozen.
The sign indicates it's in the open position and main drain test
shows no abnormalities from previous inspections.
We proposed replacing the PIV and valve- another company proposed
yanking the post, leaving the valve and simply adding a BFV on the riser.
Acceptable alternative?
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink
ler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl
er.org
Ed
2014-11-27 00:45:45 UTC
Permalink
I'm sure most of you know to back off the wrench a smidgen (scientific measurement) after fully opening a valve.

Sent from my iPhone
Post by Art Tiroly
The operating rod won't turn the gate valve? Last time someone jammed the
valve open. If you dump oil down the PIV for lubrication it may allow it the
valve to free up. Use a bigger wrench with longer handle.
Art Tiroly
ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly
24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143
216-621-8899
216-570-7030 cell
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: Frozen open PIV
Good question.
Yes we did and we pulled the top off the post as well to verify it was a
valve issue and not the post. It also was completely covered in ivy leading
us to believe it had not been exercised for many years despite inspection
tags. W
Jeff
JB Fire Protection
Sent from my iPhone
Post by M***@aerofire.com
Did you check to see if it is a left hand valve? I've run into this in the
past.
Post by M***@aerofire.com
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
Sent from my iPhone
Post by Jeff Bridges
We have a Post indicator valve that controls a single interior riser.
We discovered during routine testing the PIV is frozen.
The sign indicates it's in the open position and main drain test
shows no abnormalities from previous inspections.
We proposed replacing the PIV and valve- another company proposed
yanking the post, leaving the valve and simply adding a BFV on the riser.
Acceptable alternative?
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink
ler.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl
er.org
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Jamie Seidl
2014-11-25 03:13:22 UTC
Permalink
I am always surprised at how many left handed valves there are out there. While investigating some issues with a new fire pump Installation in Charlotte, we found 3 left handed valves, 1 open, 1 half closed, and 1 3/4 plus closed. I really don't like these, especially on a gridded underground system because unless you have a very diligent inspection dept, it is way too easy to leave a valve closed. In our situation, we caught the low flow due to the fire pumper test suction dropping to +\- 10 psi @ under 500 GPM. It ended up being a secondary main feeding hydrants had been inadvertently shut down, thinking the valves were open. Since it was a secondary main, the fire pumps were fine, but the hydrants wouldn't function for fire flows. Just something to think about for all those civil engineers on here...

Jamie Seidl
Sent from my iPhone
Post by M***@aerofire.com
Did you check to see if it is a left hand valve? I've run into this in the past.
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
Sent from my
Hinson, Ryan
2014-11-25 17:54:02 UTC
Permalink
This may be more of an issue with the Indicator post not being calibrated to indicate that the valve below is open when it is in fact partially or nearly fully closed. Ran into this before. PIV installation must indicate valve to be fully open when fully open.

Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET
Fire Protection Engineering Group
Burns & McDonnell
Direct: 952-656-3662
Mobile: 320-250-5404
*Registered in: MN

-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-***@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Seidl
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 9:13 PM
To: ***@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Frozen open PIV

I am always surprised at how many left handed valves there are out there. While investigating some issues with a new fire pump Installation in Charlotte, we found 3 left handed valves, 1 open, 1 half closed, and 1 3/4 plus closed. I really don't like these, especially on a gridded underground system because unless you have a very diligent inspection dept, it is way too easy to leave a valve closed. In our situation, we caught the low flow due to the fire pumper test suction dropping to +\- 10 psi @ under 500 GPM. It ended up being a secondary main feeding hydrants had been inadvertently shut down, thinking the valves were open. Since it was a secondary main, the fire pumps were fine, but the hydrants wouldn't function for fire flows. Just something to think about for all those civil engineers on here...

Jamie Seidl
Sent from my iPhone
Post by M***@aerofire.com
Did you check to see if it is a left hand valve? I've run into this in the past.
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
Sent from my
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